Next best ever top bar hive.
Changes
My Next Top Bar Hive.
Shorter
Since building my first top bar hives, my priorities have changed. I haven’t found much need to raise queens or nucs in the far end. The queens last three years and over wintering loses have been minimal. And I prefer harvesting at several, frequent intervals. So, I’m reducing my top bar hive height by one board to decrease its volume. This top bar hive will be two boards high by four boards wide. The broodnest will be re-positioned in the center of the hive, with honey storage on each end.
Getting Square
All my top bar hives, except one, have sloped sides. I admire those beautiful sloped top bar hives built by other beekeepers. But by optimizing material use, and reducing the number of unique parts/cuts without sacrificing functionality, each of my top bar hives has been easier to build than the previous one. And, I must admit, a little more ugly.
Sloped sides don’t reduce comb attachments, so this hive will have vertical sides.
Getting Compatible
This hive will accommodate Langstroth frames. Adding this feature involves a small amount of extra work. But greatly adds to a top bar hive’s flexibility in a Langstroth world.
Hive width is reduced. And a rabbit is cut out along the top of each side providing the frame rests. Two wooden strips, the size of the rabbit, are cut out and tacked into the frame rest when this hive is used exclusively as a top bar hive.
Top Bars
Top bar construction will remain the same. But they will be shorter at 19 7/8″, to accommodate the narrower hive body width.
Large cell sized plastic foundation will be used as a starter strip. Only 1 cell will be exposed below the top bar.
Spacer Cleats
The spacer cleats will be permanently fastened to each end. As a result, they are rectangular in cross section.
Cover
I’ll replace the OSB and tin cover with one made of lumber. Several cleats will be set back from the cover’s edge to allow efficient stacking. The cleats, on the end of the hive body, will be staggered for the same purpose.
Construction
With this design, four 6′ boards are glued together for the cover and the bottom. Two 6′ boards are glued together for the sides. And two 6′ boards are glued together for the ends and a follower board. This should greatly reduce the prep time.
Two Box Combo – The Best Bet?
Two standard Langstroth boxes can set between the spacer cleats. When used with frames, this hive functions the same as my two box combo hive.
Plans
Google Sketchup is a free 3D CAD program. It has a very intuitive interface and is quickly mastered. With it you can enlarge, rotate, manipulate, measure, section, and edit my next Top bar hive Sketchup file in any fashion you choose. You can download it here.
If you like the design, but want different dimensions. Just rescale it in Sketchup. You can stretch or squeeze it anyway you like
Different hive components are drafted on different layers which can be viewed, printed or not.
Enjoy!
Progression
My top bar hive criteria and designs illustrate how easily they are built. It might not be an optimum hive for someone else in a different climate.
Actually, my next top bar hive will be the best one ever for me. And if you have built a top bar hive, your next design will be the best one for you. Or you haven’t learned much from the experience 
I am so glad to see this information once again posted. I am new to beekeeping and know of others who might start. I keep refering them to the BWrangler website. I will try out a two box combo hive next year and use Langstroth frames. I really like the idea of being able to put supers on a horizontal. Anything to make a hive more flexible makes sense to me.
By: Todd on 11/08/2009
at 12:58 am
Hi Todd,
Thanks for the note. Here’s a link to another combo type hive. Barry, the Beesource guy, built this condo hive:
http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/alternative-hive-designs/urban-bee-condo-long-hive/
It’s a favorite hive of his. He had the skill, the tools, and the tin to put flashing where the boxes/lids joined. Later, he reported the flashing was a waste of time as the bees plugged up the cracks with propolis.
Let me know how the combo hive works out for you.
Regards – Dennis Murrell – BWrangler
By: Dennis Murrell on 11/09/2009
at 5:10 pm
Do the supers on your two box combo hive use top bars too, or frames and foundation?
By: Larry on 12/18/2009
at 10:44 pm
Hi Larry,
I use standard deep frames and supers with my two box combo hive. It was designed so that conventional equipment would be flush with the sides when put on top.
That creates some extra space inside which allows for expanding wood or can be used for an internal feeder.
For top bar use, my next top bar hive would be a better bet than the two box combo. It has end cleats which provides a bee space between the top bars and each end of the hive.
Used as a conventional hive, the bottom box offsets those boxes set above it, which might be objectionable in a very wet climate. But otherwise my next hive can be run either way.
Regards – Dennis Murrell – BWrangler
By: Dennis Murrell on 12/19/2009
at 12:34 pm
[...] My Next Top Bar Hive [...]
By: New Top Bar Hive Design « Bee Natural on 01/12/2010
at 8:31 am
Hi Dennis,
First, thank you for maintaining the super website! It has been extremely helpful to me – I hope, in time, I’ll be able to contribute my own observations on bee handling.
I have a few questions. I am just getting started in beekeeping and I don’t think I can do the Lanstroth style hives. (I have had two back surgeries in the last two years.) So I’ve been scouring the net for TBH information. I’m getting a package of bees in about a month, and then three weeks later I’ll be getting a nuc as well. (I felt that, since I’m just starting out, I should try both approaches.) For the package, many top bar designs would be fine. But the nuc, which is on 4 deep frames, is a tougher nut to crack. If I go with something like your next top bar hive, then I have a mix of traditional frames and top bars running across the top – and the top bars will fail to make a ceiling (as the bees can come up through the frames). I would prefer to disturb the bees as little as possible, which is one reason I’m drawn to top bars. So my discrete question is: if I place my nuc into a hive like your next top bar hive, how do I transition away from the Lang frames? Won’t the bees just continue to use the comb on those frames? Regarding your ultimate top bar hive, I have a similar question. If I went with a design like that, how/when do you eventually get those frames out of the hive so you can run on all top bars?
Also, how has the top bar design with one cell of plastic foundation protruding worked out? Has it given comb that’s easier to work with than alternatives? Have you tried top bars with just a triangle of wood and no wax?
And I’ll make my last question: given that I live in the wet part of Oregon, do you think your top bar designs would provide adequate ventilation during the temperate winter rainy season?
I have more questions, but I’ll lay off for now and see what you have to say about these. Thank you again.
By: Tor on 03/10/2010
at 10:52 am
Hi Tor,
Sorry to hear about your back. As I ponder working a top bar hive versus a Lang with a hurting back, the top bar wins hands down. But there might be a better option than the top bar hive. And that’s a long hive like my combo long hive. It woiuld use standard frames and could be run light a top bar hive. It might have some advantages over a top bar hive.
First the comb would be smaller, lighter, more robust, and easier to handle than top bar hive comb. That could be important when reaching across the hive to get a comb out, which involves some bending and torso twisting to cut comb attachments loose and keep top bar hive comb vertical. Not so much fussing with frame based comb.
And if needed, frame based comb can be quickly set down or leaned against a hive. Not so with top bar hive comb.
The long hive could be made longer like the three box hive. And it could be built to handle medium frames rather than deeps. Give it some legs to bring it up to a comfortable working height so no bending over, etc. is needed. It could be supered with shallows and the supers worked frame by frame reducing the weight and stress even more.
Remembering the times I’ve hurt my back, less is certainly more. And I think a frame based long hive could cut the comb weight in half.
There are top bar hive designs that have much smaller comb than my designs. Maybe they would be more appropriate than my design if they would work in your climate. My designs have very large combs. When filled with honey they are heavy.
Now that I’ve walked all over your tbh plans, but not carelessly I hope. I’ll address your questions.
Many long hives place a cloth on top of the top bars. It’s a neat addition that allows a long hive to be worked and the bees behave much as they do in a top bar hive with it’s sealed top. It would solve the problem of mixing frames and top bars together.
Top bar hive management versus Lang management? They can essentially be managed the same way with minimal disturbance. It’s just alot easier for a beekeeper to stay out of a top bar hive than it is a Lang.
Transitioning comb out of a hive is always a problem. It can be rotated into the honey storage area and then harvested at the end of a season. That’s probably the least disruptive way. But the comb is lost. And that’s not good if you wanted to keep it.
The key is to move it toward the back, then out of the broodnest once the bees are established on top bar hive comb. It’s a delicate process that takes some time to complete. A brood cycle is three weeks long and it will take a couple of brood cycles to complete the transition.
When most of the brood was out of my frames, I placed them down horizontally at the back of the hive. The bees salvaged the honey and pollen out of them. Then I removed them from the hive.
My ultimate top bar hive just could be the ultimate pain in the back! I’ve always been intrigued by some of the old world long hive designs. They have huge combs. Room for a thick quilt. And have worked well in some very cold, northern countries. But easy to work, they are not!
I’m still messing with starter strip concepts. I’ve tried just about every combination except the waxed string. I’ve found it’s best to keep it simple. The simplest approaches seem to work as well as the most complicated. Bees will be bees. And when they want curved comb, they will build it regardless.
The wet part of Oregon, that’s beekeeper’s paradise! Living in Wyoming absolutely disqualifies me, on all counts, about knowing or commenting on what’s good for Oregon bees.
Check around. I’ll bet there are a few top bar hive beekeepers somewhere near you. If not, consider the top bar hive or long hive an experiment that can be drilled, sawed, etc. at will. They’re very flexible that way.
Regards – Dennis Murrell – BWrangler
By: Dennis Murrell on 03/10/2010
at 8:14 pm
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’ve done some more reading, talked to some people, and decided to start completely from packages so I don’t need to worry about deeps.
I’m going to go for it on the long combo hive. I’m going with the 8 frame form factor as another means to decrease weight, so the long hive will be 24 frames long. And as much as I would like to run all medium frames (in the supers too) for management ease, my back has to take the priority here so I’ll go with 8 frame shallow supers. Thank you for raising this possibility – I think it’ll work out for the best. My bending and twisting skills are pretty limited, so I’m looking forward to this combo style hive. Going with shallows will also enable my kids to participate more, and they’re extremely excited to do so.
I’d never really thought about the Portland area as a bee keepers’ paradise, but that makes sense. I’m out in the Tualatin Valley, which is full of orchards and wineries, and plants start blooming in February and we’re still picking tomatoes to eat in October. If it’s great for gardening, must be great for bees!
By: Tor on 03/11/2010
at 11:45 am